Governments and medicine tend to track deaths as the only bad outcome from events like 9/11 or Covid. But typically there are a lot more people injured who suffer for the rest of their lives with the consequences, damage and chronic conditions that these events have left them with. We do need to put a lot more research into understanding and improving the quality of life of those with chronic conditions, Historically they have been ignored and are currently highly stigmatised by governments, the press and the populace.
Diseases that lead to death have had substantially better funding over the past 100s of years and chronic conditions are often rarely diagnosed, properly recognised let alone treated. The disabled is a club almost everyone joins at some point in there life and everyone is one accident or infection away from joining it for the the rest of their life. At the moment societies recognition and treatment of those with these conditions is really bad. The 9/11 survivors will be suffering for the rest of their lives. Medicine is something we all want, but at the moment the amount invested by governments is quite low compared to the upside impact on humanity of finding real answers.
I totally agree with you, it is important for people to understand that a medical doctor does not really care if you can walk a mile without pain, but it is way too nuanced to track quality of life changes across a large population. We would need to change the insurance landscape and make it easier for other medical practitioners to get insurance money and let it naturally change.
If even a little bit of the insurance money could start funneling into things like physical therapy (actual physical therapy not the BS artists at big hospitals who print you out a sheet of generic exercises) people could see practitioners who actually care about you being functional.
I tore my achilles and saw a string of doctors, podiatrists, physical therapists, chiropractors, etc. before finally finding someone that doesn't take insurance but who had me running again within a few months. He was cheap compared to the amount my insurance was being billed for a chiropractor to try and sell me $500 custom insoles. The money is there it is just being funneled in all the wrong ways.
Careful, dang might roll through and call you out for having an opinion against his party. And he will butter it up as being altruistic while warning you he has banned many other for having thoughts that disagree with him.
Hmm, I don't think that I've ever seen dang moderate a comment that is politely worded, on-topic, and non-malicious. You could argue that of comments that break the rules, dang is more likely to moderate ones on specific "sides" (I don't believe this, but it could be true), but as long as you follow the rules, you should be able to express whatever political views you want.
As far as I can tell, the comment you replied to doesn't break any rules, so I can't see why dang would ever moderate it. I don't think that it's a good comment since it's neither "intellectually interesting" or "thoughtful and substantive", but it's still on-topic and polite, so it should be fine.
(Comments expressing certain political views do tend to be downvoted/flagged, but that's all done by users and has nothing to do with the moderators. But I don't think that there's really anything to be done here, because any group of people is going to have people who will downvote anything that they disagree with.)
I'm sure the cost to give every ground zero worker clean-room level suits with a built in filter would have been 1/100000th the total cost compared to the medical expense of treating them over the next 25 years.
Clean room equipment is kind of the opposite of what was needed. Clean room equipment protects the room from the people.
What’s was needed was likely pretty basic PPE: P100 respirators along with outer clothing that would be kept out of people’s homes and showers when leaving the site. (PAPRs would have been even better, but they wouldn’t have been cheap or available in large numbers on short notice.) Unfortunately, if you watch modern construction workers, you’ll find that PPE is almost universally ignored when performing common but dangerous tasks like cutting concrete or lead-painted surfaces.
I've been well served by just using a P100 respirator when I'm doing anything dirty or dusty. There have been a few times that it's reduced exposure to something bad that I didn't know about, among them removing old shingles from my attic (asbestos composite material) or sanding paint that I had tested negative for lead (transparent varnish underneath had lead).
Weird. Wasn’t lead typically used as an opacifying agent?
In any case, if you test by taking a little scraping, you can only detect lead that you actually scraped. But if you test with X-ray fluorescence, you get an integrated density over a decent thickness.
Also, even if the P100 respirator protects you adequately while sanding, it provides no protection against future exposure to the dust that you create.
but importantly, the down-the-line costs can be obfuscated and spread across the private and public sectors just enough that the government can claim deniability and therefore is no longer on the hook for the costs.
The funny thing to me about this is how driven by (ignorant) public demand that led to premature re-openings. People have agency, and it’s always a little depressing to see people acting like they’re robots being led by a shadowy power.
People bitches about masks, about everything and politicians tend to give in to that.
The politicians (and more directly, their corporate sponsors) stoked that opinion. It didn't come from nowhere. From day 1 of the pandemic the reactionary media ecosystem would not shut the fuck up for even a MOMENT about the unnecessary "draconian" "authoritarian" lockdowns and how bad they were. Why? Because said corporate masters were losing shitloads of money because it was dangerous for customers to go shopping, and it was even more dangerous for people to go to work. But we can't possibly pump the brakes on the economy, even for a moment! Lines have to go up, no matter how many millions of lives it costed.
Yes, the people demanded it, but that demand itself was a created thing. Sure we would've had our vaccine deniers and other assorted cranks, we always have and will, but we had an entire sector of the mass media pouring gasoline on that fire as fast as they fucking could to manage exactly what fucking happened.
And like, even if you want to say the above is tinfoil hat shit: Okay, then the Governments job in this situation would be to defer to experts and figure out public policies that would keep people safe. Which we did, kind of, for awhile. But like if public opinion is screeching so loud for lockdowns to end, the government should fucking say NO. That's their JOB.
Agency occurs in individuals who operate within systems and Americans are some of the most propagandized people on the face of the Earth, and some of the worst educated in the global north. Average reading level is 6th grade. Critical thinking is in the shitter. "I did my own research" is specifically a cultural meme describing how piss poor Americans and many other overseas in the same global north are at both obtaining rigorous sourced information and using it to make decisions. COVID was a demonstration of all of these issues brought to a scale where it became impossible to ignore.
I blame systems more than people because systems should know better, and they largely did, but their ability to act has been hamstrung by one of our political parties holding the line on the notion that "Freedom" means ignorant dipshits with ignorant dipshit opinions should get to weigh in with equal credibility to people who actually understand things, which is a large part of why our government can no longer function apart from passing more fucking tax breaks for people who don't need them while our infrastructure rots and the wife of the owner of WWE dismantles the department of education.
The main reason I don't buy "agency" here is because ultimately the agency of covidiots shouldn't have been a factor either way. We have law enforcement supposedly, I'm told, to ensure the safety of the public. So do it then. Nations the world over that would be characterized as "free" managed to restrict the flow of people and goods in such a way to ensure safety much, much better than we did. Saying "well the people wanted lockdown to end" is fucking pathetic excuse-making on the part of the powerful. Of course people wanted lockdowns to end, they fucking sucked. I too missed restaurants. I too missed shopping. I too missed haircuts. But if it wasn't time yet it wasn't time, and when it was time should've been determined by people in the health sciences who study pandemics, not dipshits from flyover states.
I'm genuinely sorry that a huge chunk of our populace that lives in places with poor economic opportunities and low social mobility get their fee fees hurt when people who study shit for a living say "you're wrong about this" but that's simply a lower-tier issue than the broad strokes health of the country. If the mere notion that someone else who you may not respect knows more than you and is therefore being asked before you sends you into a mental health spiral, may I suggest therapy?
Agency isn't some magical axiomatic property where if you exercise it you're the sole contributing factor to your actions. Exercising agency, like making any other choice, is a decision whose inputs include your circumstances, history, etc.
Consider someone who quit smoking cigarettes in the 1950s. That was a time when cigarette smoking was common and not widely considered unhealthy. That person exercised agency. Now consider someone who quit in the 2020s, when cigarette smoking is widely warned against. That person exercised agency, too. More people quit smoking in the 2020s than the 1950s, by any measure. Does that mean people had less agency in the 1950s? No, it means the inputs to their decision-making on how to exercise their agency were different.
And the fear was visible and public. We watched planes hit our tallest buildings live on TV and the horrors that ensued. It was publicly visceral in a way that an invisible virus, which has had people struggling in relative privacy and obscurity, hasn't been.
the news media also played it on endless loops for months
in my life I've been notably traumatized first by the endless loops of the Challenger tragedy and then 9/11, I often wonder what the next event will be
I should also point out we also killed a million people in Iraq in response to 9/11 who will never ever have a memorial, Bush/Cheney would never ever have had the military enlistment to invade Iraq if it wasn't for the hype of 9/11 by the media, even Bush has mentioned it himself
Fair point, we don't televise their deaths especially in such a visceral and repeated way and therefore it can feel more distant.
I still think if we showed people dying from covid in the more gruesome way, it may have changed our response to it, just as if we show any human or being dying in a gruesome way.
« we don't televise their deaths » — Wikileaks did, at least tried to, but bravely filling in these gaps in the footage had regrettable consequences. Assange had to stay a couple years imprisoned in am embassy till they struck a deal. Bradley Manning got a different deal, involving castration.
Governments and medicine tend to track deaths as the only bad outcome from events like 9/11 or Covid. But typically there are a lot more people injured who suffer for the rest of their lives with the consequences, damage and chronic conditions that these events have left them with. We do need to put a lot more research into understanding and improving the quality of life of those with chronic conditions, Historically they have been ignored and are currently highly stigmatised by governments, the press and the populace.
Diseases that lead to death have had substantially better funding over the past 100s of years and chronic conditions are often rarely diagnosed, properly recognised let alone treated. The disabled is a club almost everyone joins at some point in there life and everyone is one accident or infection away from joining it for the the rest of their life. At the moment societies recognition and treatment of those with these conditions is really bad. The 9/11 survivors will be suffering for the rest of their lives. Medicine is something we all want, but at the moment the amount invested by governments is quite low compared to the upside impact on humanity of finding real answers.
I totally agree with you, it is important for people to understand that a medical doctor does not really care if you can walk a mile without pain, but it is way too nuanced to track quality of life changes across a large population. We would need to change the insurance landscape and make it easier for other medical practitioners to get insurance money and let it naturally change.
If even a little bit of the insurance money could start funneling into things like physical therapy (actual physical therapy not the BS artists at big hospitals who print you out a sheet of generic exercises) people could see practitioners who actually care about you being functional.
I tore my achilles and saw a string of doctors, podiatrists, physical therapists, chiropractors, etc. before finally finding someone that doesn't take insurance but who had me running again within a few months. He was cheap compared to the amount my insurance was being billed for a chiropractor to try and sell me $500 custom insoles. The money is there it is just being funneled in all the wrong ways.
Jon Stewart to his credit has done a tremendous amount of work on this.
Republicans, to their discredit, have not.
Careful, dang might roll through and call you out for having an opinion against his party. And he will butter it up as being altruistic while warning you he has banned many other for having thoughts that disagree with him.
He will even send you an algolia link to prove he isn't biased... which is just gold. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Hmm, I don't think that I've ever seen dang moderate a comment that is politely worded, on-topic, and non-malicious. You could argue that of comments that break the rules, dang is more likely to moderate ones on specific "sides" (I don't believe this, but it could be true), but as long as you follow the rules, you should be able to express whatever political views you want.
As far as I can tell, the comment you replied to doesn't break any rules, so I can't see why dang would ever moderate it. I don't think that it's a good comment since it's neither "intellectually interesting" or "thoughtful and substantive", but it's still on-topic and polite, so it should be fine.
(Comments expressing certain political views do tend to be downvoted/flagged, but that's all done by users and has nothing to do with the moderators. But I don't think that there's really anything to be done here, because any group of people is going to have people who will downvote anything that they disagree with.)
Historical facts would disagree vehemently with you.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
I'm sure the cost to give every ground zero worker clean-room level suits with a built in filter would have been 1/100000th the total cost compared to the medical expense of treating them over the next 25 years.
Clean room equipment is kind of the opposite of what was needed. Clean room equipment protects the room from the people.
What’s was needed was likely pretty basic PPE: P100 respirators along with outer clothing that would be kept out of people’s homes and showers when leaving the site. (PAPRs would have been even better, but they wouldn’t have been cheap or available in large numbers on short notice.) Unfortunately, if you watch modern construction workers, you’ll find that PPE is almost universally ignored when performing common but dangerous tasks like cutting concrete or lead-painted surfaces.
I've been well served by just using a P100 respirator when I'm doing anything dirty or dusty. There have been a few times that it's reduced exposure to something bad that I didn't know about, among them removing old shingles from my attic (asbestos composite material) or sanding paint that I had tested negative for lead (transparent varnish underneath had lead).
> transparent varnish underneath had lead
Weird. Wasn’t lead typically used as an opacifying agent?
In any case, if you test by taking a little scraping, you can only detect lead that you actually scraped. But if you test with X-ray fluorescence, you get an integrated density over a decent thickness.
Also, even if the P100 respirator protects you adequately while sanding, it provides no protection against future exposure to the dust that you create.
> Weird. Wasn’t lead typically used as an opacifying agent?
That's its role in paint, but lead glass [0] is a thing, so transparent lead-based compounds do exist.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass
but importantly, the down-the-line costs can be obfuscated and spread across the private and public sectors just enough that the government can claim deniability and therefore is no longer on the hook for the costs.
Even the kind of masks we all got used to during COVID (KN95 etc) would have probably done wonders compared to the nothing they were given.
Doesn't matter. Literally the same calculus as reopening everything far prematurely for COVID: "But the economy!"
The people running this show don't give a flying fuck about the working class. They'll march us into the meat grinder no matter what.
The funny thing to me about this is how driven by (ignorant) public demand that led to premature re-openings. People have agency, and it’s always a little depressing to see people acting like they’re robots being led by a shadowy power.
People bitches about masks, about everything and politicians tend to give in to that.
The politicians (and more directly, their corporate sponsors) stoked that opinion. It didn't come from nowhere. From day 1 of the pandemic the reactionary media ecosystem would not shut the fuck up for even a MOMENT about the unnecessary "draconian" "authoritarian" lockdowns and how bad they were. Why? Because said corporate masters were losing shitloads of money because it was dangerous for customers to go shopping, and it was even more dangerous for people to go to work. But we can't possibly pump the brakes on the economy, even for a moment! Lines have to go up, no matter how many millions of lives it costed.
Yes, the people demanded it, but that demand itself was a created thing. Sure we would've had our vaccine deniers and other assorted cranks, we always have and will, but we had an entire sector of the mass media pouring gasoline on that fire as fast as they fucking could to manage exactly what fucking happened.
And like, even if you want to say the above is tinfoil hat shit: Okay, then the Governments job in this situation would be to defer to experts and figure out public policies that would keep people safe. Which we did, kind of, for awhile. But like if public opinion is screeching so loud for lockdowns to end, the government should fucking say NO. That's their JOB.
Again, “People I disagree with have no agency” is a really unfortunate cognitive failure mode.
Agency occurs in individuals who operate within systems and Americans are some of the most propagandized people on the face of the Earth, and some of the worst educated in the global north. Average reading level is 6th grade. Critical thinking is in the shitter. "I did my own research" is specifically a cultural meme describing how piss poor Americans and many other overseas in the same global north are at both obtaining rigorous sourced information and using it to make decisions. COVID was a demonstration of all of these issues brought to a scale where it became impossible to ignore.
I blame systems more than people because systems should know better, and they largely did, but their ability to act has been hamstrung by one of our political parties holding the line on the notion that "Freedom" means ignorant dipshits with ignorant dipshit opinions should get to weigh in with equal credibility to people who actually understand things, which is a large part of why our government can no longer function apart from passing more fucking tax breaks for people who don't need them while our infrastructure rots and the wife of the owner of WWE dismantles the department of education.
The main reason I don't buy "agency" here is because ultimately the agency of covidiots shouldn't have been a factor either way. We have law enforcement supposedly, I'm told, to ensure the safety of the public. So do it then. Nations the world over that would be characterized as "free" managed to restrict the flow of people and goods in such a way to ensure safety much, much better than we did. Saying "well the people wanted lockdown to end" is fucking pathetic excuse-making on the part of the powerful. Of course people wanted lockdowns to end, they fucking sucked. I too missed restaurants. I too missed shopping. I too missed haircuts. But if it wasn't time yet it wasn't time, and when it was time should've been determined by people in the health sciences who study pandemics, not dipshits from flyover states.
I'm genuinely sorry that a huge chunk of our populace that lives in places with poor economic opportunities and low social mobility get their fee fees hurt when people who study shit for a living say "you're wrong about this" but that's simply a lower-tier issue than the broad strokes health of the country. If the mere notion that someone else who you may not respect knows more than you and is therefore being asked before you sends you into a mental health spiral, may I suggest therapy?
GP didn't say that, though.
Agency isn't some magical axiomatic property where if you exercise it you're the sole contributing factor to your actions. Exercising agency, like making any other choice, is a decision whose inputs include your circumstances, history, etc.
Consider someone who quit smoking cigarettes in the 1950s. That was a time when cigarette smoking was common and not widely considered unhealthy. That person exercised agency. Now consider someone who quit in the 2020s, when cigarette smoking is widely warned against. That person exercised agency, too. More people quit smoking in the 2020s than the 1950s, by any measure. Does that mean people had less agency in the 1950s? No, it means the inputs to their decision-making on how to exercise their agency were different.
https://archive.ph/I6vOQ
I guess the key thing to the 9/11 event is it was sudden and instant
1.5 Million people died from Covid, not just died but SUFFERED and died from 2020-2024
there was a 9/11 every other day for years, sometimes every day
there are STILL in 2026 several hundred per month dying from Covid
there are still ten million people or more living the hell of long-covid and will never recover
but because Covid was spread out over years, not a single memorial, it will never be over
And the fear was visible and public. We watched planes hit our tallest buildings live on TV and the horrors that ensued. It was publicly visceral in a way that an invisible virus, which has had people struggling in relative privacy and obscurity, hasn't been.
the news media also played it on endless loops for months
in my life I've been notably traumatized first by the endless loops of the Challenger tragedy and then 9/11, I often wonder what the next event will be
I should also point out we also killed a million people in Iraq in response to 9/11 who will never ever have a memorial, Bush/Cheney would never ever have had the military enlistment to invade Iraq if it wasn't for the hype of 9/11 by the media, even Bush has mentioned it himself
Fair point, we don't televise their deaths especially in such a visceral and repeated way and therefore it can feel more distant.
I still think if we showed people dying from covid in the more gruesome way, it may have changed our response to it, just as if we show any human or being dying in a gruesome way.
« we don't televise their deaths » — Wikileaks did, at least tried to, but bravely filling in these gaps in the footage had regrettable consequences. Assange had to stay a couple years imprisoned in am embassy till they struck a deal. Bradley Manning got a different deal, involving castration.